THE SLUTS: The Interview

DennisCooper.net: Hi, Dennis. How are things?

DC: Well, Bush just won reelection three days ago, so things are pretty depressing and grim. But we'll figure out a way to bring that fucker down once the shock wears off.

DC.N: Do you mind talking about The Sluts?

DC: No, the distraction would be great.

DC.N: You've seemed kind of ambivalent about the novel. Is that true? If so, why?

DC: It's not really ambivalence. It's just strange because I wrote it over such a long period of time, almost ten years. So it's not a new novel and it's not part of the 'George Miles Cycle' either, even though I started it while I was writing the cycle. I think just the way I worked on it in fits and starts makes me not sure what to think about it. I've always written my novels with intense concentration and faith, and this one kind of happened on the sidelines.

DC.N: You started it right after 'Try,' right?

DC: Yeah, at first it was going to be the fourth book in the cycle. I had this idea that I wanted to return to the extreme material in Frisk because, in the structure of the cycle, the fourth book has to be the mirror image of Frisk. But then I decided to use things I was really interested in at that time like rave culture, indie rock, my friends, and so on, and I wrote 'Guide' instead. The only thing left in the novel from that period is the chapter called 'Email, Fax,' and even that got really rewritten. Then after 'Guide,' I went back to the novel again thinking I might be able to use it as the basis for the fifth novel in the cycle, but then I found out my friend George Miles had died, and I had to start over completely. But the idea of a novel set mostly on one webpage on the internet came from that phase, and the chapter called 'Ad' is from that draft.

DC.N: You've described it as a cousin to the cycle.

DC: Yeah. The mirror or bowtie structure of 'The Sluts' is the same structure I used for the novels in the cycle. And it's about sex versus sexual fantasy, and the sex-violence axis, and the main character 'Brad' is a lot like the teen boy characters in the cycle. It's definitely from that period of my work, but I think of it more as a kind of experiment on the sidelines of the cycle. It doesn't have the kind of gravity and seriousness of the cycle. It's lighter in a weird way.

DC.N: The writing is different.

DC: I was going for the kind of horny everyman rhetoric you see on X-rated gay message boards and escort reviews and so on. The art in my writing is definitely there, but it's more internalized. The writing in 'The Sluts' feels more casual, even though I worked really hard to get it to that point. It's blabbier writing, but the blab is as tight as I could get it. Still, it's my longest novel by far, just over three hundred pages.

DC.N: Why did you decide to publish it in a limited edition?

DC: Happenstance. I offered it to Grove Press, but they didn't want it. They wanted 'God Jr.' instead. My agent told me that basically no one in the US would publish 'The Sluts.' He said the climate in publishing was too conservative. He said it would be better to publish something really different from what I'd written before. So I thought, okay, it'll get published in Europe where I have an easier time in general, and it won't get published here. But then Alex Kasavin approached me to do a limited edition book with Void, and it was the obvious choice. It's worked out great so far.

DC.N: It's definitely the most X-rated of your books.

DC: Yeah, pretty relentlessly so. I'm really interested in the language of pornography, and this was the most I've ever gotten to work with it.

DC.N: Is the character Brad based on a real person?

DC: Physically, he's a conglomeration of a whole bunch porn models I found online. In the novel, Brad is a fantasy figure made up of a whole bunch of other characters' fantasies and ideals. If there was one central model for Brad, it's this Czech porn star from the 90s named Peter Azur. He was in a bunch of porn videos from this company called Man's Best/Proof on File. There was a big cult of men obsessed with Peter Azur for a while, mostly based on this one video he starred in called 'Boy Crazy.' For a while, screen-grabs from that video were all over the internet.

DC.N: What was the big deal about him?

DC: That's what was interesting. He was this kind of goofy looking Czech kid. He was charismatic, and he had this kind of wannabe teen idol look, but he wasn't in any way the perfect looking, gym built porn star type. He was a total slut who'd do anything, and he threw himself into the sex, but he seemed very 'whatever' about it, like he thought it was all a kind of stupid joke. So the obsession with him was really unusual. It was driven by something specific to him, which is rare in gay porn. He was more like a character actor than a classic star. Anyway, that obsession with him was the initial inspiration.

DC.N: What happened to him?

DC: Well, the mania about him happened a few years after he'd quit making porn. So Man's Best coaxed him into making a comeback, and hyped the return of Peter Azur big time. But he'd totally lost his appeal. He was chunky, and he'd cut his characteristic long blond hair, and he had this kind of lug look about him. His fans were horrified, and his comeback video got deleted very quickly. Anyway, that online Peter Azur cult gave me the idea for 'The Sluts,' but physically, Brad is always out of focus. The only commonalities are that he's blond, thin, in his teens, has a few physical tics, is sexually passive, and looks younger than his age.

DC.N: The relationship to 'Frisk' is pretty clear.

DC: Yeah, but it's much less overtly complex and t has much more humor in it. It's weird: some people who've read it think it's a comedy, but others don't see the comedy at all. But then that's always happened with my books. For some people, the intensity of the content erases the tone.

DC.N: It even has kind of a twist ending like 'Frisk.'

DC: A much more gradual twist. It's not like a Shymalan movie or anything. You can see it coming.

DC.N: So are you really finished with writing about sex and violence now? Is 'The Sluts' the last of that work?

DC: Oh, I don't know. Part of me wants to change my work completely, and part of me doesn't want to make rules for myself. There's a lot of pressure on me to change, but there always has been. Critics and publishers have always said, 'Oh, he's such a good writer. If only he wrote more acceptable books, then we could support him in a big way.' I've been told that ever since 'Closer.' So when I finished the cycle, I thought, okay, I'll try something different and less experimental. But then I wrote 'My Loose Thread,' which to me is a much more … accessible or whatever kind of book, and nothing changed at all. I realized that what they really want me to do is write some piece of charming crap. So now I want to change my work just to challenge myself. With 'God Jr,' I wanted to write a novel with no gay characters or sex or sexual fantasy or violence, just to see what I could do. I'm really happy with it, but it's no more conventional or normalized than my other novels.

DC.N: So is it the beginning of the 'new 'Dennis Cooper?

DC: I don't know if it signals some new direction for me. It might be a one-off. It's just that before I always had this huge project, the cycle, and now I'm taking it book by book. But I doubt I'm done with writing about the complexities of sex. It's still a very interesting thing to me.

DC.N: You've said you want to make a porn movie.

DC: I always have, and I totally intend to. I just need the money and some likeminded collaborator to do or help me with the camera stuff. And I'd like to write some kind of nonfiction book about porn.

DC.N: What happened to 'Warm,' that porn movie you were making a few years ago?

DC: Good question. That was for Carter Smith, the fashion photographer and rock video director. He commissioned the script, and I wrote it. There was a lot of interest in it. This big independent film production company signed on to make it. But I haven't heard a word about it from him or them for a couple of years now. I think maybe Carter decided to go a more commercial route. He directed that documentary on Jane's Addiction that came out last year. I'm thinking of turning the script into a yaoi or a graphic novel. As far as I can tell, the movie's dead. It's too bad. It was pretty good, actually. It was sort of like a gay porn movie crossed with Buffy the Vampire Slayer, if you can picture that.

DC.N: You can't make the movie yourself?

DC: No, no. It's a real indie feature film. Big cast, a lot of locations. The budget was like $500,000, I think. If I make a porn, it'll be an amateur, super low budget thing.

DC.N: Maybe someone reading will want to finance your porn movie. You never know.

DC: Absolutely. Any financiers or camera guys or wannabe porn stars out there, give me a shout.

DC.N: So after the limited edition of 'The Sluts,' will there be a paperback version so more people can get it?

DC: That isn't decided yet. I don't think that decision will be made for a while. In other countries, it'll be published in a normal kind of way. But in the US, I don't know. It might just be this kind of rare thing.

DC.N: Since this is a hardcore sex novel, can we ask you some sex questions?

DC: I guess so. Give it a shot.

DC.N: Okay, what are your five favorite porn movies or videos of all time?

DC: Wow, uh … Off the top of my head, and in no particular order, Cadinot's 'All of Me,' Man's Best's 'The Fucking Class,' Falcon Pac 12, Toby Ross' 'Schoolmates' (the original one from the 70s), and maybe Jason Sato's 'Kid Brother.' That last one and the Toby Ross are from back in the days when artists were making gay porn. 'Kid Brother' is very Douglas Sirk-like, very melodramatic. I don't think it's in print anymore.

DC.N: How about your five favorite sex novels of all time?

DC: You mean novels that are about sex in some way?

DC.N: Sure.

DC: Hm. Sade's '120 Days of Sodom,' Guyotat's 'Eden Eden Eden,' Burroughs' 'The Wild Boys,' Bataille's 'The Story of the Eye,' and Genet's 'Funeral Rites.' Again, that's the five I choose today.

DC.N: There's a lot of unsafe sex in 'The Sluts.' What do you think about the whole barebacking phenomenon?

DC: I think it's nihilism. I'm not a nihilist. I'm fascinated by it as a writer, but I think it's very depressing. I think the deifying of cum is really bizarre. People argue that this whole wave of tweaking and promiscuity and unsafe sex is some kind of revolutionary act, but the fact is that the guys doing all that tend to be the most superficial, apolitical, shallow people in the so-called gay community. It's short term thinking taken to the point of insanity. But I'll shut up now.

DC.N: What's going with the 'My Loose Thread' movie?

DC: I don't know. I haven't heard from them lately. You know, most of these movie projects never end up happening. People option a novel, and then they're never able to raise the money. Three different people wanted to make a movie of 'Try,' and none of those projects happened. Kenneth Anger wanted to make a movie of 'Closer,' but it didn't happen. Etc. So I have a 'believe when I see it' attitude. The only movie that's definitely on track is the 'Horror Hospital' movie, as far as I can tell.

DC.N: What are you working on now?

DC: Right now? I'm writing a second theater piece for Gisele Vienne, the French director with whom I did 'I Apologize.' I'm trying to finish my book of poems. Some journalism. I'm writing the jacket copy for the Richard Hell novel in my Little House on the Bowery series. That's about it, I guess.